Comments - A BRIEF NOTE ON ACCENTS: - eLatin eGreek eLearn2024-03-29T09:02:56Zhttp://eclassics.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=727885%3ABlogPost%3A25181&xn_auth=noI think I should add to what…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-08-25:727885:Comment:267812008-08-25T18:30:17.646ZLegoquegohttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/Legoquego
I think I should add to what I said eralier about the Estonian language: wherever the stress is, the pitch is raised, and the syllable is very slightly louder than the unstressed syllable. But anything could happen in speech, just as it would have happened in Latin.
I think I should add to what I said eralier about the Estonian language: wherever the stress is, the pitch is raised, and the syllable is very slightly louder than the unstressed syllable. But anything could happen in speech, just as it would have happened in Latin. Introduction to Attic Greek,…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-23:727885:Comment:260092008-07-23T09:36:36.640ZLatinum Institutehttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/metrodorus
Introduction to Attic Greek, D. Mastronarde pg 17<br />
Contonation and mora:<br />
The apparently complex 'rules' of Greek accentuation can be understood in terms of a single general principle involving the concepts of contonation and mora. Contonation is the combination of the rise in pitch generally thought of as the accent with the necessary fall or return to standard pitch which follows it. In the case of the acute accent, the contonation includes both the syllable on which the accent is written, and…
Introduction to Attic Greek, D. Mastronarde pg 17<br />
Contonation and mora:<br />
The apparently complex 'rules' of Greek accentuation can be understood in terms of a single general principle involving the concepts of contonation and mora. Contonation is the combination of the rise in pitch generally thought of as the accent with the necessary fall or return to standard pitch which follows it. In the case of the acute accent, the contonation includes both the syllable on which the accent is written, and on which the pitch rises and the entire following syllable on which the pitch falls, if any, whether it counts as long or short. In the case of the circumflex accent, the contonation occurs on the one syllable on which the accent is written, for there are both a rise in pitch and a return to standard pitch on that syllable. A mora is a (theoretically assigned) "standard" length of a short vowel. A long vowel or a dipthong occupies (theoretically) a time span equivalent to two morae.<br />
The general principle is that the contonation may be followed by no more than one mora before the end of the word. This principle is in many respects similar to the rules in other languages (e.g.latin) which constrain the position of accent according to the nature of the final syllable of a word." (note the apparent contradiction to Siher)<br />
"the cicumflex accent ^ represents a rise of pitch over the first mora of a long vowel followed by a return to standard pitch over the second mora." more notes:
"New Comparative…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-23:727885:Comment:260072008-07-23T09:25:05.252ZLatinum Institutehttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/metrodorus
more notes:<br />
"New Comparative Grammar of Latin and Greek" Andrew Siher pg 236<br />
In Greek the PIE system of accent was altered in two different ways. First, the free accent was replaced in nouns and adjectives by one in which the accent must fall within the last three syllables; and if the ultima was long, within the last two. Or, expressed in terms of morae ( a short vowel = one mora) the accent could stand on the fourth mora from the end in a case like anthorpos, with a short ultima, otherwise…
more notes:<br />
"New Comparative Grammar of Latin and Greek" Andrew Siher pg 236<br />
In Greek the PIE system of accent was altered in two different ways. First, the free accent was replaced in nouns and adjectives by one in which the accent must fall within the last three syllables; and if the ultima was long, within the last two. Or, expressed in terms of morae ( a short vowel = one mora) the accent could stand on the fourth mora from the end in a case like anthorpos, with a short ultima, otherwise not further back than the third mora from the end. Hence, the circumflex ( in effect acute plus grave) was excluded from the antepenult, and might occur on the penult only when the ultima was short.......The historical Latin accent resembled the Greek in that it could not stand farther back than the third syllable from the end of the word, but beyond this general restriction the resemblances cease. In Latin the penult ( a syllable which plays almost no role in the Greek system) determined the position within these limits, in Greek the governing syllable was the ultima ( a syllable which plays no role in the Latin system). The Latin accent was uniformly recessive...the ruling variable in Latin was the weight of the penult, while the length of the vowel of the ultima is operative in Greek. The Latin accent fell on the antepenult unless the penult was heavy ( to borrow a term from Sanskrit Grammarians), namely containing a dipthong or a long vowel or was followed by more than one consonant [i.e. long by position]. In such a case, the accent fell on the heavy penult." Some more notes:
Regarding Gr…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-23:727885:Comment:260052008-07-23T09:10:30.370ZLatinum Institutehttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/metrodorus
Some more notes:<br />
Regarding Greek, WS Allen uses the term 'contonation', consisting of a high pitch on the accented mora, and a falling glide on the following mora, if part of the same syllable [i.e. the circumflex accent]. The then states, "not more than one mora ( short vowel) may follow the contonation" (p 124 Vox Graeca)<br />
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Roman Jakobson pg 270 "On Ancient Greek Prosody", in "Selected Writings" says:<br />
In Latin the principle of the mora predominates over the syllabic principle: the count of…
Some more notes:<br />
Regarding Greek, WS Allen uses the term 'contonation', consisting of a high pitch on the accented mora, and a falling glide on the following mora, if part of the same syllable [i.e. the circumflex accent]. The then states, "not more than one mora ( short vowel) may follow the contonation" (p 124 Vox Graeca)<br />
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Roman Jakobson pg 270 "On Ancient Greek Prosody", in "Selected Writings" says:<br />
In Latin the principle of the mora predominates over the syllabic principle: the count of syllables gives only the starting point - the second syllable from the end of the word, from here on there begins the count of morae - the second mora from the end of this syllable determines the position of the accent. Thus, the count of the morae is the immediate determinant of the place of the accent in the Latin word......The quantitiative principle of versification in no way excludes the accent from among the rhythmic factors, as has been shown by the studies on the distribution of the accent in Latin verse and by the recent work of J. Rypka ( in Travaux du Cercle Linguistique de Prague, VI (1936) pg 192 f.<br />
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See also J. Safarewicz, "Etudes de phonetique et de metrique latines" (Wilno, 1936) p 73f. I agree with the article and…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-19:727885:Comment:258882008-07-19T09:34:00.266ZLegoquegohttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/Legoquego
I agree with the article and I do Latin in the way as posited by that article. Now, time for boasting. I can do Latin with a stress and a pitch accent and a mixture of both. I think my pronunciation is just as good as Robert Sonkowsky or Lucus Eques (Luke Amadeus Ranieri, from textkit forums). The last comment by Evan is very straight to the point: one should keep the stress on the correct syllable and continue distinctions between vowel (more like syllable) lenghts. By the way, Estonian is…
I agree with the article and I do Latin in the way as posited by that article. Now, time for boasting. I can do Latin with a stress and a pitch accent and a mixture of both. I think my pronunciation is just as good as Robert Sonkowsky or Lucus Eques (Luke Amadeus Ranieri, from textkit forums). The last comment by Evan is very straight to the point: one should keep the stress on the correct syllable and continue distinctions between vowel (more like syllable) lenghts. By the way, Estonian is much more atonal than Latin, Italian, Ancient Greek, but sometimes it is funny to speak Estonian with an Italian accent, especially the Latin-derived foreign words, makes for a good joke, but such a joke is less funny as time goes by. Sometimes, theatrical performances are done with a theatrial intonation in Estonian that probably derives from Italian opere. To us Estonians it sounds either artistic(appealing), or annoying, or funny. Although, also equally as much, foreign accents are appealing. I know how to pronounce several languages, but I only ever learned 4 seriously: Estonian (native, similar to Hungarian especially in terms of vowel length distinctions and a presence of stress, in our case a stress on the first syllable and on other syllables in native words, tonality in Estonian is comparable to that of Germanic languages, but we have 14 cases in Estonian.) Though, I found a book containing an antology of ancient Greek poetry translated into Estonian. Apparently, it's very difficult to render Estonian in Greek meters, as we have 3 syllable length distinctions, in a way, too complicated to describe in this post. Latin pronunciation is very easy for me, because Estonian has all the letters in almost exaclty the same phonetical detail, and way more(a total of 9 vowels, and therefore lot of diphthongs), but Estonian lacks the w sound, but we have the j (i glide, like in Latin use). It's very easy to use the w now because I picked it up from English. Mr Doublier recently wrote to…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-06:727885:Comment:254342008-07-06T20:43:45.070ZLatinum Institutehttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/metrodorus
Mr Doublier recently wrote to me, with the following observation:<br />
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While listening just now to Mr. MacDonald's recitation of Latin sentences, I heard an example, in several of his sentences, of what for me is the conclusive proof that Latin had a pitch accent.<br />
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Mr. MacDonald accents by length, quite properly, the last syllable of "volo". He accents the second O in time by making it last two or more morae. He accents the first "o" by making it last, quite properly, one mora. But he fails to…
Mr Doublier recently wrote to me, with the following observation:<br />
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While listening just now to Mr. MacDonald's recitation of Latin sentences, I heard an example, in several of his sentences, of what for me is the conclusive proof that Latin had a pitch accent.<br />
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Mr. MacDonald accents by length, quite properly, the last syllable of "volo". He accents the second O in time by making it last two or more morae. He accents the first "o" by making it last, quite properly, one mora. But he fails to accent the first syllable, as the Latin rules demand.<br />
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There are only three ways to accent the first syllable:<br />
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(1) lengthen the "o". But this is impossible; we know it was a short "o".<br />
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(2) stress, by volume, the "o". But this would either lengthen the first o, or, if held to one mora while pronouncing it in a loud volume, produce the oddest jarring effect when contrasted with the unstressed by temporarily long second o.<br />
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(3) Raise the pitch of his voice on the first "o".<br />
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The third option is the only viable one. It is the only one which renders feasible maintaining the second "o". on the ultima, long. I invite anyone to try these three options himself, by way of an experiment. A high-pitched short "o" in VO does not conflict with a low-pitched long "o" in "LO". This dual system of accentuation is the only way long vowels could have remained long in unaccented syllable. Yes, we are hoi polloi in Okl…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-01:727885:Comment:252862008-07-01T21:24:06.724ZLaura Gibbshttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/lauragibbs
Yes, we are hoi polloi in Oklahoma, and proud of it... ha ha! :-)
Yes, we are hoi polloi in Oklahoma, and proud of it... ha ha! :-) True, John uses somewhat colo…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-01:727885:Comment:252842008-07-01T21:21:16.397ZLatinum Institutehttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/metrodorus
True, John uses somewhat colourful language. 'largely atonal' maybe, rather than blighted is a more apt description. Though from the heights of the Palatine Hill, methinks that is probably how the patres conscripti thought of hoi polloi labouring down below in the suburba.
True, John uses somewhat colourful language. 'largely atonal' maybe, rather than blighted is a more apt description. Though from the heights of the Palatine Hill, methinks that is probably how the patres conscripti thought of hoi polloi labouring down below in the suburba. Hmmm, I think I will not let…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-01:727885:Comment:252492008-07-01T12:44:30.417ZLaura Gibbshttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/lauragibbs
Hmmm, I think I will not let my Oklahoma students know that they are speaking a "blighted" form of English that steals the warmth from their hearts and the beauty from their life and language. Calling one form of English speech or Latin speech "blighted" when compared to another is just the same prejudice shown by Mr. Whalen, inverted.
Hmmm, I think I will not let my Oklahoma students know that they are speaking a "blighted" form of English that steals the warmth from their hearts and the beauty from their life and language. Calling one form of English speech or Latin speech "blighted" when compared to another is just the same prejudice shown by Mr. Whalen, inverted. Message forwarded to me for p…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-01:727885:Comment:252472008-07-01T12:07:23.458ZLatinum Institutehttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/metrodorus
Message forwarded to me for posting here by John Doublier:<br />
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De Lingva Latina Recte Pronuntianda<br />
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I found Mr. Whalen's criticism of Evan Millner's pronunciation of Latin on the latter's website "Latinum" curious to say the least, all the more so because I am by profession a simultaneous interpreter (as well as a translator) practicing this vocation in a number of modern languages, including a few of Latin's granddaughters. Like other interpreters, I am obliged to improve continuously my…
Message forwarded to me for posting here by John Doublier:<br />
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De Lingva Latina Recte Pronuntianda<br />
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I found Mr. Whalen's criticism of Evan Millner's pronunciation of Latin on the latter's website "Latinum" curious to say the least, all the more so because I am by profession a simultaneous interpreter (as well as a translator) practicing this vocation in a number of modern languages, including a few of Latin's granddaughters. Like other interpreters, I am obliged to improve continuously my language skills I have lived eight years in different foreign countries, working on one or another foreign language to gain the required vocabulary, fluency, and pronunciation. In this office I am compelled to pay due attention to the niceties of stress and intonation, especially in my non-native Spanish, French, Italian, German, Romanian, all of which I have interpreted in trials and court proceedings, lest my listeners be left scratching their heads in partial or total incomprehension.<br />
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In all this time I have not come upon one human language that does not exhibit both stress and tonality. Some languages, like English and its Germanic cousins, feature more stress than tonality, but the tones are still there and are easily heard in almost any utterance one can imagine, except perhaps from those emanating from an actor or comedian speaking in a monotone for comic or dramatic or anti-dramatic effect. Even our modern English speech, in its most blighted form, i.e., that heard from the relatively immobile mouths of U.S. Midwesterners and farmers and ranchers living on the Great Plains shows some small variation of pitch.<br />
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I cannot imagine the Latin of any period having been spoken in a monotone, especially in the Classical period. I speak to a greater or a lesser degree the five major Romance languages, and none of these offspring of Latin wants for tonal variations. Indeed, Italian, Romanian, and French have a very marked tonality in educated speech.<br />
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There may have been some backwaters in the Roman Republic or Empire where where farmers, dung-spreaders, and other locals spoke Latin with lock-jaw monotony. But I cannot believe that the philhellene optimates and litterati of Rome and other urban centers eschewed musical pitch in speaking a Latin which, of course, also featured stress. But both the abundance evidence cited by the great American linguist E. H. Sturtevant in his "The Pronunciation of Latin and Greek " and the marked musicality of Latin's children, esp. French, Italian, and Romanian convince me that Virgil did not compose his hexameters with a monotone buzzing in his ear.<br />
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If, however it is the monotonous backwater speech that Mr. Whalen wishes to impart to his pedagogical charges, he is welcome to do so, clamping his jaw shut with surgical wire and avoiding arpeggios up and down the musical scale in favor of atonality.<br />
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I am not a Latin teacher, hence do not know with what ancient Roman professions today's students of Latin might identify. But I would wager that those of "cantor" and "musicus" at the court of Augustus would win hands-down over those of "agricola" or "stercorator" on the eastern edge of Dacia (Qvid diceret Ovidius?).<br />
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As for Latin's modern avatars, it is impossible to hear a native speaker of Italian uttering that at once ancient and modern Italic word "cantare" without noting the delightfully falling interval of a musical fifth, a characteristic of the Italian language that Verdi and Donizetti exploited to such great advantage and which did not simply appear out of nothing. It is also eerily similar to the Greek circumflex accent as described by Dionysius Halicarnassus and deftly reproduced by Mr. Millner on Latinum).<br />
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And "cantare" is what I would suggest that Mr. Whalen do a little more of, especially in his classes of Latin, less whatever acoustic appreciation of Latin that his pedagogic charges have retained be completely obliterated by a stress-heavy pronunciation of Latin which taken to the extreme steals the warmth out of the human heart and the beauty out of human life and language.<br />
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John Doublier