An Alternative to AP - eLatin eGreek eLearn2024-03-28T21:55:14Zhttp://eclassics.ning.com/forum/topics/727885:Topic:19988?commentId=727885%3AComment%3A20057&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI love this idea as well as t…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-07-18:727885:Comment:258522008-07-18T13:11:33.030Znick russohttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/nickrusso
I love this idea as well as the one by Mr. Reinhard. Is there any serious discussion at the college level.<br />
Nick Russo
I love this idea as well as the one by Mr. Reinhard. Is there any serious discussion at the college level.<br />
Nick Russo Why not simply offer the new…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-18:727885:Comment:218452008-04-18T00:41:47.662ZLatinum Institutehttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/metrodorus
Why not simply offer the new Oxford and Cambridge International "Pre-University" (Pre-U) examination in Latin, which becomes available in 2008.<br />
As a UK A - level equivalent, (actually, it is pitched at a higher level than A-Level, and is intended to be of University-level) it should have AP status for the majority of USA universities, according to my initial research on the CIE website. .This syllabus offers is a wide ranging course, with a broad selection of texts. Getting its certification…
Why not simply offer the new Oxford and Cambridge International "Pre-University" (Pre-U) examination in Latin, which becomes available in 2008.<br />
As a UK A - level equivalent, (actually, it is pitched at a higher level than A-Level, and is intended to be of University-level) it should have AP status for the majority of USA universities, according to my initial research on the CIE website. .This syllabus offers is a wide ranging course, with a broad selection of texts. Getting its certification confirmed as an AP equivalent would be much simpler than initiating a new examination.<br />
Evan Millner. London. I think it would be a fantast…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-14:727885:Comment:214442008-04-14T16:22:08.964ZIrina Greenmanhttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/IrinaGreenman
I think it would be a fantastic idea, but would not serve the small programs in large public schools.<br />
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At my school, a huge percentage of the students need AP credits in order to be able to afford college. If Latin didn't have AP offerings, we would have almost no students. We are a small program (under 150 students) in a huge school (about 3000 students). As such, we struggle year-to-year to prove our viability, and one of the most important points we've been able to make is the AP exams (we…
I think it would be a fantastic idea, but would not serve the small programs in large public schools.<br />
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At my school, a huge percentage of the students need AP credits in order to be able to afford college. If Latin didn't have AP offerings, we would have almost no students. We are a small program (under 150 students) in a huge school (about 3000 students). As such, we struggle year-to-year to prove our viability, and one of the most important points we've been able to make is the AP exams (we have yet to see what the cancellation of AP Lit will do to our program - but it won't be good, that's for sure).<br />
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I personally do not approve of credit exams. I think that they do nothing to enhance the college experience. However, I can say with absolute certainty that parents in my county would not support a credit exam in their place, and that our Latin program would probably perish if we lost AP.<br />
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In a perfect world, we could tell College Board that we don't care about them anymore, and we're going to do our own exam and do what we have to do for the benefit of our students. Unfortunately, this isn't that perfect world.<br />
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College Board's current position is the reason for anti-trust laws. They have done more harm than good, in my opinion, but there's no other option as far as credit exams go, and like it or not those credit exams are central to parents' decisions for their kids. Not to sound like an alarmist…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-11:727885:Comment:208572008-04-11T16:28:37.675ZChris Geggiehttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/ChrisGeggie
Not to sound like an alarmist, but I think the amount of control that outside forces, like the College Board, have over curricula (and therefore the intellectual development of our students) is dangerous. I agree completely that the one thing our students need the most is MORE exposure to Latin Literature (and maybe some secondary research, to get them prepared for college work). I like the idea of a nationally recognized (i.e. sanctioned by the professional Classics organizations) placement…
Not to sound like an alarmist, but I think the amount of control that outside forces, like the College Board, have over curricula (and therefore the intellectual development of our students) is dangerous. I agree completely that the one thing our students need the most is MORE exposure to Latin Literature (and maybe some secondary research, to get them prepared for college work). I like the idea of a nationally recognized (i.e. sanctioned by the professional Classics organizations) placement test. I was very fortunate to have taken both AP Lit and Vergil and am ever so grateful that my high school teacher offered both of them because of the broader Latin base I had when I entered college.<br />
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I think that it is possible for us to design a standardized curriculum and police ourselves (and students) through a placement exam that college departments would recognize. CAMWS is coming soon, that is a great place to start. I would say that we (if we're serious and if the College Board screws us) should have a full proposal ready by the APA/AIA meeting this coming January. When I took AP Latin back in…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-11:727885:Comment:207552008-04-11T00:52:07.944ZKeith Todahttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/KeithToda
When I took AP Latin back in high school (way back in the late 80's!), it was in a split-level Latin III/IV/AP class. The way my Latin teacher handled it was to spend two full years on the Vergil syllabus (back when it was just books I, II, IV and VI) - with one year being books I and II, and the other year being books IV and VI. She also began the year with Pliny, Ovid and other writers before we began working on the syllabus. I read the Vergil syllabus in the order of books IV, VI, I and II…
When I took AP Latin back in high school (way back in the late 80's!), it was in a split-level Latin III/IV/AP class. The way my Latin teacher handled it was to spend two full years on the Vergil syllabus (back when it was just books I, II, IV and VI) - with one year being books I and II, and the other year being books IV and VI. She also began the year with Pliny, Ovid and other writers before we began working on the syllabus. I read the Vergil syllabus in the order of books IV, VI, I and II over those two years. I am SO glad that this is how my Latin teacher did it, because we took our time going through the material, so at the end of Latin III and having gone through 1/2 of the syllabus, most who continued their Latin studies took AP. It was because of this extended coverage that I truly began to appreciate the Latin language and epic poetry.<br />
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When I look at the Vergil syllabus now, I see that how my own Latin teacher covered the material will not work any longer. With students now having to cover additional lines in books X and XII, in addition to knowing the ENTIRE epic in English, splitting the syllabus over 2 years really won't work well. If I were a student now and had to go through all of this in ONE year, I don't think that I would have the same appreciation and love for Latin like I did when I did the Vergil syllabus in high school. Mirabilissime auditu! Ginny,…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-09:727885:Comment:200872008-04-09T11:54:08.816ZSteve Perkinshttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/StevePerkins
Mirabilissime auditu! Ginny, I couldn't agree with you more. The pace of the Vergil is indeed breakneck and beats the life out of both the poetry and the students. I saw a post at Latinteach where a woman who had been opposed to IB has now made the full conversion and is ready to do away with AP.<br />
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So, would parents support a placement exam rather than a credit exam? Or has AP already done too much corrosive damage, leaving families to expect college credit in high school as one of their…
Mirabilissime auditu! Ginny, I couldn't agree with you more. The pace of the Vergil is indeed breakneck and beats the life out of both the poetry and the students. I saw a post at Latinteach where a woman who had been opposed to IB has now made the full conversion and is ready to do away with AP.<br />
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So, would parents support a placement exam rather than a credit exam? Or has AP already done too much corrosive damage, leaving families to expect college credit in high school as one of their God-given, unalienable rights? I agree in great measure rega…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-08:727885:Comment:200572008-04-08T22:25:30.970ZGinny Lindzeyhttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/GinnyLindzey
I agree in great measure regarding placement exams vs credit exams. I think so much of the college experience is missed with credit exams. My niece took both AP Latin exams--enjoyed her Latin Lit class, but hated Vergil because the pace was breakneck. They never had time to discuss Dido's suicide, etc etc. But, she happily took her credits and went off to Cal Tech and is in computer sciences, I think. She's never read any more Latin I don't think. Frankly, I don't think she had time to simply…
I agree in great measure regarding placement exams vs credit exams. I think so much of the college experience is missed with credit exams. My niece took both AP Latin exams--enjoyed her Latin Lit class, but hated Vergil because the pace was breakneck. They never had time to discuss Dido's suicide, etc etc. But, she happily took her credits and went off to Cal Tech and is in computer sciences, I think. She's never read any more Latin I don't think. Frankly, I don't think she had time to simply ENJOY it.<br />
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Having the time to actually work on your Latin instead of RUSHING THROUGH IT would be terrific.<br />
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And if it were a PLACEMENT test as opposed to a credit by exam, I think it would be much easier for ACL/APA to be a part of.<br />
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I myself took the achievement test in high school, which I studied hard for and did decently on, but UTexas wouldn't/didn't accept it. They had their own placement test. But by that time I was just tested out. So I went around to the profs I knew from competition and got Bill Nethercut to let me into his 311 prose class. Right before I graduated someone noticed that I didn't have 506 & 507 Latin on my transcript and granted it on the spot. HA.<br />
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But my point is this: if we have students AND parents who are more interested in education than saving college dollars, we could probably do a placement exam. I think the credit exam is trickier.<br />
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And as for all that's being posted on Latinteach, well I can hardly keep up with it now. BUT I would love to see something a little more daring on a test--like, explaining what was going on in the passage in Latin--writing in Latin about the Latin. Certainly doable--I know Jeanne Newmann does this in her classes.<br />
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Ultimately here's the thing: If the test was about the quality of Latin and not the quantity read (like AP Vergil), then we could slow down to incorporate more whole language stuff into our courses. Might be interesting.<br />
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ginnyL I was really impressed by the…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-08:727885:Comment:200222008-04-08T16:06:33.378ZLaura Gibbshttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/lauragibbs
I was really impressed by the many criticisms of the AP Exam format as it stands now, as surfaced in the very heavy traffic on the LatinTeach listserv as a result of the AP exam decision. There is a lot of great input to be culled from the comments people have been making there over the past week.<br />
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I'm guessing that a considerable number of people interested in this issue will be present at the CAMWS meeting - that might be a great place for high school and college faculty to discuss together,…
I was really impressed by the many criticisms of the AP Exam format as it stands now, as surfaced in the very heavy traffic on the LatinTeach listserv as a result of the AP exam decision. There is a lot of great input to be culled from the comments people have been making there over the past week.<br />
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I'm guessing that a considerable number of people interested in this issue will be present at the CAMWS meeting - that might be a great place for high school and college faculty to discuss together, in person, what might be some productive steps.<br />
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One of the biggest challenges and best opportunities of a situation like this is that it provides a chance for high school and college faculty to collaborate on a project of mutual interest and importance!<br />
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I'm guessing this eClassics ning space could be a good place to collaborate and share ideas, since it is easy to have discussion here (and the discussions are directly addressed by links, so you can send a link to a specific discussion in an email, etc.) - plus you can upload documents here to share.<br />
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I'm not teaching Latin or Greek at this time, but I do teach related online courses at my university (mythology and folklore, etc.), and I have a great personal interest in the development of effective online testing methods. If there are specific discussions about using online technologies to administer a new test effectively and efficiently, I'll be glad to contribute my two cents' worth! :-) I should clarify that this ex…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-08:727885:Comment:200202008-04-08T15:54:05.028ZLaura Gibbshttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/lauragibbs
I should clarify that this exam at my university was a PLACEMENT exam - not a credit exam.<br />
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That is a distinction of huge importance.<br />
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Personally, I really don't think high school students should be given college credit for any AP exams (college is college, and high school is high school) - but the need for placement exams, especially in language courses, is tremendously important.<br />
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I don't think you will win a fight to give high school students college credit with something other than an AP…
I should clarify that this exam at my university was a PLACEMENT exam - not a credit exam.<br />
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That is a distinction of huge importance.<br />
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Personally, I really don't think high school students should be given college credit for any AP exams (college is college, and high school is high school) - but the need for placement exams, especially in language courses, is tremendously important.<br />
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I don't think you will win a fight to give high school students college credit with something other than an AP exam (and it's not as if universities are all that enthusiastic about dispensing credit for AP exams to begin with)... so, if you are looking for an exam to compete with the AP exam in terms of awarding college credit, I don't think you will get a lot of university faculty who will help in that fight.<br />
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But when it comes to valid, accurate, easy-to-administer PLACEMENT tests, then the colleges will be your friends indeed! Placement tests in language courses is a huge problem for universities and the AP exam is a very blunt instrument for that purpose. The AP exam returns a very narrow range of scores, and it doesn't cover the same wide array of Latin language competencies that might be covered in a college first-year Latin course. So, the AP exam does not serve as a very good placement test to begin with, which is why you could do a tremendous service by coming up with a much better, more flexible exam for that purpose. Laura, what a great idea! I w…tag:eclassics.ning.com,2008-04-08:727885:Comment:200162008-04-08T15:52:08.585ZSteve Perkinshttp://eclassics.ning.com/profile/StevePerkins
Laura, what a great idea! I was unaware of Moodle...in fact, I checked it out briefly just now. I like very much the idea that individual Classics departments could pick and choose what elements that wanted to award with credit. This allows both for standardization and individualization, two ideals that may have seem irreconcilable in the past.<br />
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Classics has led the way in the past in pedagogical and technological innovation, being one of the first disciplines to make huge text databases…
Laura, what a great idea! I was unaware of Moodle...in fact, I checked it out briefly just now. I like very much the idea that individual Classics departments could pick and choose what elements that wanted to award with credit. This allows both for standardization and individualization, two ideals that may have seem irreconcilable in the past.<br />
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Classics has led the way in the past in pedagogical and technological innovation, being one of the first disciplines to make huge text databases available to the public. This could benefit not only Classics, but other fields as well who do not want to be beholden to the monopoly of College Board.<br />
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Okay...anyone out there who is reading this...what is the next step?